Talk:Wormhoudt massacre

Prelude

Recently, the cited text to this section (which had quasi-justification for an incident) was changed and replaced with new cited text from a website. The new text was from a BBC website but clearly there are problems: First, the website states it was "written by the public" and only collected by the website so there are WP:RS and WP:VERIFY problems. Second, the website article has no inline cites; third, no relevant connection is shown by the information as to the battle mentioned in the website article and the subject of this article. The burden is on the one wanting to add new material to show same. That has not been done, thus far, so it has been removed. Kierzek (talk) 12:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on those making the allegation. Right now the "massacre" is hearsay at best. --41.150.75.164 (talk) 12:19, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Somehow I doubt that you're over at the Dachau Massacre page saying the same thing. Though questions remain, no reputable historian denies that a massacre took place.--172.190.4.103 (talk) 11:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Location

Hello. My English is bad, so I beg your pardon... This massacre took place in commune Esquelbecq, which is a part of Canton of Wormhout, and not in commune Wormhout. Yours. Kadbzh (talk) 13:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Some sources

- À Esquelbecq, cérémonie à 16 h 30 au mémorial de la plaine au bois pour le 70e anniversaire du massacre par les SS de soldats anglais et gallois faits prisonniers. [1] Durant cet affrontement, une centaine de soldats appartenant aux Royal Warwickshire Régiment, Cheshire Régiment et Royal Artillery sont faits prisonniers, puis menés et enfermés dans une grange implantée sur une pâture au lieu-dit « la Plaine au Bois » à Esquelbecq. Ils sont alors assassinés par des éléments du régiment SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, la garde personnelle du führer, qui n’ont pas supporté que l’on puisse leur opposer une telle résistance. [2] LA PLAINE AU BOIS, Esquelbecq Rue des Duinkerk Vétérans Site de mémoire de la Seconde Guerre mondiale où s’est produit un massacre honteux. Le 28 mai 1940, les Allemands attaquent le nœud routier de Wormhout, point stratégique pour leur progression vers Dunkerque, défendu avec acharnement par les Britanniques. Durant cet affrontement, une centaine de soldats appartenant aux Royal Warwickshire Régiment, Cheshire Régiment et Royal Artillery sont faits prisonniers, puis menés et enfermés dans une grange implantée sur une pâture au lieu-dit « la Plaine au Bois » à Esquelbecq. [3] Visite libre du site de la Plaine au Bois, tous les jours de la semaine. Visite guidée possible sur réservation préalable au 03.28.62.88.57 (Office de Tourisme**/Maison du Westhoek). [4] Du 1er au 3 novembre 1996 : Déplacement des « Vétérans 1940 » de Llandudno à Wormhout et Esquelbecq. (...) Visualisation du Massacre d’Esquelbecq sur différents téléviseurs. [5] French ask for help to preserve British PoW massacre site, By Neil Tweedie 12:00AM GMT 24 Nov 2000 THE mayor (???) of a French village has made an urgent appeal for help in preserving the site of a massacre of British PoWs by the SS. Guy Rommelaire has raised £15,000 to buy the field near his home village of Esquelbecq, where some 80 British troops captured on the retreat to Dunkirk in 1940 were murdered in a barn by the SS using grenades and machineguns. Only a few escaped. [6] Plaque in Esquelbecq br:Restr:PlakennLazhadegLaPlaineauBoisMaeEkelsbeke1940.jpg Seconde Guerre mondiale : L’occupation allemande débuta fin mai 40 par une bataille atroce à laquelle rien ne destinait la commune. 84 soldats britanniques furent massacrés par les SS de la division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, à la Plaine au Bois. Un mémorial, en témoignage de ce crime de guerre, est érigé route de Wormhout, et plus récemment la grange du massacre a été reconstruite à l’identique. Le commandant du régiment était Sepp Dietrich. fr:Esquelbecq Site de mémoire de LA PLAINE AU BOIS à ESQUELBECQ. Le site de mémoire de la Plaine au Bois est situé rue des DUNKIRK VETERANS à ESQUELBECQ. C'est un lieu de souvenir de 2,40 ha qui évoque le massacre du 28 mai 1940 de 80 soldats britanniques faits prisonniers et assassinés par les S.S. de la garde personnelle d'Adolf HITLER. [7] Le circuit passe par le site du mémorial de la Plaine au Bois à Esquelbecq où une centaine de soldats anglais furent massacrés par les allemands le 28 mai 1940. [8] Arrival at massacre site Auteur : Matt Tryon - 11 March 2012 ESQUELBECQ [9] Wormhoudt massacre, 59470 Esquelbecq, Nord, Nord-Pas-de-Calais [10]

-- Kadbzh (talk) 13:45, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

If you have english cites that would be of help. With that said, I finally found a photo of the "barn"; the one you posted is not the original barn. A 1/8-Memorial site of la Plaine au Bois and the "Massacre Barn" was put up in recent times. Where it took place: Wormhoudt is 1Km south east of Esqeulecq near the D17 Rue de Wormhout. 50 degrees 52 minutes 47.26N 2 degrees 26 minutes 36.80E. See the linked site:[11] for further detailed information. Kierzek (talk) 15:04, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

If there is a Rue de Wormout, it can't be IN Wormout... I understand very well it may be difficult for foreign people to understand something in French administrations. Kadbzh (talk) 16:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The original barn felt in ruins, so I made it very clear on Commons:"The rebuilt barn, La Plaine au Bois, Wormhoudt massacre";

• "réplique", French for "replica"

[12] [13]

• The "D 17" is a departemental road, not a communal one, so it crosses several communes: in Esquelbecq it's called "Rue de Wormhout" and in Wormhout it's called "Rue d' Esquelbecq".

Some more sources

This map (an official one) shows the limits (line of little black points) between Esquelbecq (West) and Wormhout (East), and Ledringhem (South). "Résidence du Parc" is in Wormhout, "La Plaine au Bois" in Esquelbecq [14]. The barn is 8 mm under the "n" of La Plaine au Bois", in the cross of the three lanes and the ditch (blue pecked line). rue des DUNKIRK VETERANS is in Esquelbecq, not in Wormhout [15] At the end of the day, the british soldiers protecting Wormhout and Esquelbecq surrendered and were brought by the SS in a barn (a cowshed) at Esquelbecq and massacred.Guy ROMMELAERE, deputy mayor of Esquelbecq, secretary of the franco-british association for the plaine au bois memorial BBC - WW2 People's War

--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kadbzh (talk • contribs) 19:31, 27 August 2012‎

Kierzek invited me to review this conversation as I had previously edited this article (actually I created the article), so the first thing I have done is refactor the above discussion so I could clearly see who said what and those parts which are evidence. If you do not like it then please revert my edit. -- PBS (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I had a look at the above and a quick search of the internet. I think that we can start with Three English papers:

1. Royal Warwickshire Regiment Museum staff (10 May 2004), Brief account of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment in WW2, BBC
2. Wormhoudt Massacre Site
3. Neil Tweedie (24 Nov 2000), "French ask for help to preserve British PoW massacre site", Daily Telegraph

The first says that "hamlet of Esquelbecq was a German stronghold", in which case it would be usual for captured troops to be marched back towards the German rear along their lines of communications. The third says that the Local French mayor was looking for cash to buy the field. The massacre like a battle does not have to have taken place where the name indicates (eg the battle of Waterloo is not named after the place it was fought but after the village near by in which Wellington spent the night). The British who were captured did not fight in Esquelbecq as it was already in German hands, they fought near/in other villages and were then marched to the execution spot.

The problem with the words "in Esquelbecq" is that they will be read as in the village of Esquelbecq (not in the civil parish -- or the French equivalent-- of Esquelbecq), as far as I can see from the above sources it was on the road between the villages, close to Esquelbecq. -- PBS (talk) 22:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, so "in the commune of Esquelbecq, not far from Wormhout" would be better?

+ an another picture, this plaque is fixed on the wall of the Roman catholic church in the (little) town of Esquelbecq File:PlakennLazhadegLaPlaineauBoisEkelsbekeMae1940ouzhanilizkatolikLuc'hskeudennKlaodanDuigou.jpgL.jpg Kadbzh (talk) 14:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Not really. A commune to the average English language speaker would not conjurer up images of a civil parish or district but rather a "Commune". Simpler to says about 1 kilometre (0.62 mi) south east of Esqeulecq next to the "D 17" (the Esquelbecq to Wormhoudt road). -- PBS (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Guys, so where exactly did the massacre take place then? Can you clarify/confirm that please? I just learned about this event through watching the BBC documentary, and came here to learn more still (which is what makes Wikipedia so nice) but I'm a little confused through your discussion. In the infobox on main article it just says in location of " Wormout". Thanks! Azx2 17:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Expand introductory paragraphs / lead ?

Hi Guys. I'm not the editor to do it right now, but I think this article could benefit from an expanded lead. As an example of what I'm thinking, here is the intro the [Paradis massacre] article:

The Le Paradis massacre was a war crime committed by members of the 14th Company, SS Division Totenkopf, under the command of Hauptsturmführer Fritz Knöchlein. It took place on 27 May 1940, during the Battle of France, at a time when the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was attempting to retreat through the Pas-de-Calais region during the Battle of Dunkirk.

Soldiers of the 2nd Battalion, the Royal Norfolk Regiment, had become isolated from their regiment. They occupied and defended a farmhouse against an attack by Waffen-SS forces in the village of Le Paradis. After running out of ammunition, the defenders surrendered to the German troops. The Germans led them across the road to a wall, and machine-gunned them. Ninety-seven British troops died. Two survived, with injuries, and hid until they were captured by German forces several days later.

After the war, Fritz Knöchlein was located, tried and convicted by a war crimes court, with the two survivors acting as witnesses against him. For his part in the massacre, Knöchlein was executed in 1949.

What do you think? Could something like the above be done for here? Thanks. Azx2 17:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

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Newly released MOD files. July 2019

Newly released, previously classified Secret MoD files can be found in the National Archives at Kew, London. The file label is

DEFE 13/2204

Description: Legal and Compensation: Waldheim 'Alleged War Crimes'; Allied POWs Mukden; Wormhoudt Massacre.

Released 24 July 2019.

I don't know what's in this file. During the present Covid-19 outbreak the National Archives are closed, and it may be several months before anyone can access it. Good luck with it though. George Hutchinson —Preceding undated comment added 16:16, 25 March 2020 (UTC)